I Guess I'll Step In Too

Excellent Qualifications Sir, I had the opportunity to learn and train with the finest Med Tech's in the CF when I was doing my work -up training for TF 3-08, TCCC Course.. Ubique, Golf C/S 39B

Looking forward to it.

About the burning sensation LOL

Ok, heres a question. Most places have a first aid kit of some discription 02 defib etc etc. Given that it would be reasonable for security to encounter someone that has recieved a GSW do you think that a substance like "quick clot" should be included in the first aid bag? are there any liabilities (legal) that you are aware of concerning that product? is it commercially available? are there any contraindications to its use? Is there a better product out there that can also deal with shock, not just blood loss?

Reaserchguy, at my last site we had an EMR level medical bag which contained quick clot, but only in a small quantity for such things as nosebleeds. We also had a large abdominal compress bandage which would be better suited for a GSW to somewhere like the abdomen or chest. Direct pressure is always the preferred method for stopping blood loss. Worst case scenario use your hand (with a nitrile glove on) and apply pressure. We were fortunate that at the property I worked for EMS was a quick response away if needed. All we usually did in the event of a medical was ensure their ABC's were intact and C-spine precautions if necessary. Usually EMS arrived on scene pretty quickly so we didn't usually have to do anything more. If we ever had a GSW our procedure would be stop as much blood loss as possible until EMS arrives. In WW2 movies you see the medics pouring a clotting powder into the wound and tying a bandage over top.

Ah! I'll come right back to this... bah I'm sooo busy at work and moving. I'll answer your questions ASAP RG.

Thanks Vader, i think its a relevant thing these days to learn how to deal with GSW

Looking forward to it!

In WW II, GI's used sulfa powder as an aid to preventing infection, it was not a clotting agent....as far as I know, only the US Forces employed it.You can still find it in some surplus shops, in small paper envelopes.Stay Safe !!

Originally Posted by Researchguy67

Ok, heres a question. Most places have a first aid kit of some discription 02 defib etc etc. Given that it would be reasonable for security to encounter someone that has recieved a GSW do you think that a substance like "quick clot" should be included in the first aid bag? are there any liabilities (legal) that you are aware of concerning that product? is it commercially available? are there any contraindications to its use? Is there a better product out there that can also deal with shock, not just blood loss?

As promised RG here I go. I will have to address your questions with several different answers so bare with me.

The thing with Quick Clot is that it is ONE of many different hemorrhage control agents commercially available. The problem becomes not which one to use, but when to use it. Lots of time when confronted with severe hemorrhaging many people automatically turn to a hemorrhage control agent. This is not recommended and in fact is discouraged. Prior to these agents being introduced (HemCon, Celox, QC etc) people utilized direct pressure to stop bleeding. Direct pressure works roughly 98% of the time, and even then, other things like indirect pressure (pressure points) or tourniquets should be attempted prior to introducing hemostatic agents into the wound.

Now, when we're talking about GSWs most often then not, we're thinking about GSWs to the thorax or center of mass. When this occurs the first thing one needs to do is not provide medical treatment, but to ensure that the threat is first neutralized or at least made safe. Then you need to start with the primary and secondary. High flow O2 is a good idea, but before anyone does that, we need to first plug the hole. An occlusive dressing (plastic/rubber) cut down into a square approximately 1" larger all the way around the GSW, should be taped on three sides while leaving one side clear. This allows gas and fluids to escape every time the casualty exhales, and seals the wound every time they inhale. This is only a temporary measure and the individual will need to be seen immediately by advanced medical aid (hospital). Beleive it or not, most of the time, the occlusive dressing is pretty much what we as paramedics do as well.

There are liabilities in the sense that as far as I know, QC has not been approved by the Canadian Surgeon General for use by the public. I will do some research and get back to you on that one. If this item is not approved by the SG then when it is used by personnel, you open yourself up to litigation, and no the Good Samaritan Act will not cover you since this would be one of those things you have not been trained on it, and hence will not be acting within the realm of your training. The Canadian Forces has approved QC for use but we have a very different health care system.

Is the item commercially available? Yes it is. In the US. It is available from specialty tactical stores, but they are not sold in Pharmacies and again that goes back to the SG's approval for commercial re-sale.

The best thing that a FIRST-AIDER can use is exactly what they're taught in their courses. O2 works great as it gives the body important oxygen to keep vital organs alive, especially when the body is losing both fluid volume and the ability to transport the oxygen and nutrients because of the wound. The best thing you can do to treat shock is to provide prompt and immediate treatment for the root cause of the shock. Now if this was a tactical medic, then there are other things we can do i.e. IV bolus. But if we're talking just security guards with standard first-aid, or work-place first-aid then what I said above is it.

I hope I answered your question RG.

Originally Posted by MedTech

As promised RG here I go. I will have to address your questions with several different answers so bare with me.

The thing with Quick Clot is that it is ONE of many different hemorrhage control agents commercially available. The problem becomes not which one to use, but when to use it. Lots of time when confronted with severe hemorrhaging many people automatically turn to a hemorrhage control agent. This is not recommended and in fact is discouraged. Prior to these agents being introduced (HemCon, Celox, QC etc) people utilized direct pressure to stop bleeding. Direct pressure works roughly 98% of the time, and even then, other things like indirect pressure (pressure points) or tourniquets should be attempted prior to introducing hemostatic agents into the wound.

Now, when we're talking about GSWs most often then not, we're thinking about GSWs to the thorax or center of mass. When this occurs the first thing one needs to do is not provide medical treatment, but to ensure that the threat is first neutralized or at least made safe. Then you need to start with the primary and secondary. High flow O2 is a good idea, but before anyone does that, we need to first plug the hole. An occlusive dressing (plastic/rubber) cut down into a square approximately 1" larger all the way around the GSW, should be taped on three sides while leaving one side clear. This allows gas and fluids to escape every time the casualty exhales, and seals the wound every time they inhale. This is only a temporary measure and the individual will need to be seen immediately by advanced medical aid (hospital). Beleive it or not, most of the time, the occlusive dressing is pretty much what we as paramedics do as well.

There are liabilities in the sense that as far as I know, QC has not been approved by the Canadian Surgeon General for use by the public. I will do some research and get back to you on that one. If this item is not approved by the SG then when it is used by personnel, you open yourself up to litigation, and no the Good Samaritan Act will not cover you since this would be one of those things you have not been trained on it, and hence will not be acting within the realm of your training. The Canadian Forces has approved QC for use but we have a very different health care system.

Is the item commercially available? Yes it is. In the US. It is available from specialty tactical stores, but they are not sold in Pharmacies and again that goes back to the SG's approval for commercial re-sale.

The best thing that a FIRST-AIDER can use is exactly what they're taught in their courses. O2 works great as it gives the body important oxygen to keep vital organs alive, especially when the body is losing both fluid volume and the ability to transport the oxygen and nutrients because of the wound. The best thing you can do to treat shock is to provide prompt and immediate treatment for the root cause of the shock. Now if this was a tactical medic, then there are other things we can do i.e. IV bolus. But if we're talking just security guards with standard first-aid, or work-place first-aid then what I said above is it.

I hope I answered your question RG.

Nice, thanks MT food for thought